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Eve & Trisha

Eve Drew  0:00  
Welcome to the Business of Health Podcast. I'm Eve Drew founder of Her Health Collective.

Trisha Cashmere  0:05  
and I'm Trisha cashmere CEO of The Healthy Body Company. And we are so glad that you found our podcast. 

Eve Drew  0:11  
We hope you find it inspiring, educational and empowering. Hello and welcome to the Business of Health Podcast. Joining me today is my wonderful co host Trisha Cashmere. Hi, Trisha.

Trisha Cashmere  0:23  
Hi, Eve, how are you?

Eve Drew  0:25  
I'm really well thank you. And we have a lovely special guest today. Niky Hamilton is joining us. Niky is a qualified physiotherapist whose career and health spans over the last 25 years. She has a passion for health and wellness and loves learning and teaching. Her physiotherapy career has evolved from building expertise in hip and pelvic pain, to teaching and hosting physiotherapy workshops, to starting her own clinic back in 2007. And working on business and team development. Her career has more recently expanded into coaching and facilitating women's resilience retreats. We are so excited to have you join us today. Welcome Niky.

Niky Hamilton  1:04  
Thank you so much for inviting me along. I'm really excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to talking to both of you. So thank you. 

Eve Drew  1:11  
Thanks. Absolutely.

Trisha Cashmere  1:12  
We were just talking about how Niky came to be on our podcast today. So Niky and I met as a part of her leadership journey and my leadership journey, a Dare to Lead retreat that was being facilitated by Kemi Nekvapil. And it was funny because I think we worked out that we were, we graduated from physiotherapy maybe only one or two years apart. But didn't you know, even though there was only a few people there didn't recognise each other. So it was great to meet you, Niky. And I'm so glad that you agreed to join us today.

Niky Hamilton  1:40  
Yeah, thank you very much. And it was a really great time to spend together on that that retreat. We had took a lot of tools out of that. So yeah, yes.

Trisha Cashmere  1:49  
We can recommend that one can't we? 

Niky Hamilton  1:50  
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. 

Trisha Cashmere  1:52  
So Niky, I'm really interested to hear about your journey in physio, and how you got involved in the business side. So we know that 2007 was kind of that start date, but what was it that sort of made you decide to take that path?

Niky Hamilton  2:06  
Um, to be honest, I, I've always worked as a contractor. So I worked over in London for five years as a contractor. So I always had my own, I guess, business mindset. As far as working for myself, I wasn't often in the employment, employed sector.  I did in my first year as a physiotherapist in the hospital system and I actually enjoyed that. But it wasn't much of a leap really for me to consider, well, I'll now open my own little space and start my own business. Because I'd already had that mindset for such a long period of time. Yeah, so I initially just started just me as a as a small sole trader. And my intention at that point in time was just to keep it pretty small. Yeah.

Trisha Cashmere  2:56  
And for good reasons.

Niky Hamilton  2:59  
You know, you end up going down pathways that you didn't know that you're gonna go down, of course. But I think I'd spent a lot of time working in really busy clinics, where I felt that it was like we were under the pump.  It was back to back patients and I felt at that time, oh, is this turning into a bit of a factory, and it wasn't a factory. It was a great practice, actually but I felt at that point in time, you know what I want to make it smaller, control my own diary a little bit more control my own time that I'm spending with my patients. And hence I opened my own business. Initially, it was from home.

Trisha Cashmere  3:35  
Yeah, wow.

Eve Drew  3:37  
I think a lot of people do start their own businesses Niky, in a similar position to you in that going. You know, I've seen back to back patients, I'm not having a lot of control over my diary. I can't control the amount of time I spend with people, I want to have a little bit more freedom about who I'm seeing. So I think that is and obviously when you've got that entrepreneurial spirit, which you have, it seems less overwhelming for you, obviously for someone like you to just to go well that's what I want to do. So I'm gonna go out and do it. What does your business look like now?

Niky Hamilton  4:08  
My business looks like now,  I've got a bit much bigger team now of women. So I've got six physios on board, a team of three admins, staff and a practice manager and a massage therapist. So I, I guess I've started small, just for me and soon realised there were a few things that I felt were missing. Part of it was being able to interact with other physiotherapist. Sorry, my, my things dinging at the same time always great mid podcast to have a ding come through. I felt at that time, I guess I reached a point where I had been working for probably 10 years as a physiotherapist at that point. And I was working from home sort of by myself. I felt a little bit more isolated and felt I needed a bit more of a team environment potentially. But it was at that point in time that I also experienced a significant grief within my family, in that someone very close passed away. And I, at that point, I realised. I guess that I'd spent a lot of my career giving to other physios, giving to patients, giving to the business running around at that point in time. I was still teaching workshops around Australia on hip and pelvic pain. So I was heavily involved in teaching as well as my business and I, I kind of realised that I, I'd given a lot, and I especially spent a lot of time talking to everybody about their health, but hadn't spent a lot of time on my own health. And so with that sort of realisation, I've started to spend a bit more time figuring out how to prioritise myself. And from there, my business kind of naturally grew like I can't even really recall the moment where it suddenly I started to evolve and have more of a team. I don't know if it was a conscious decision, but I think it was a natural thing that developed more as a result of me actually prioritising me.

Trisha Cashmere  6:17  
It's really interesting, because it's quite a big team that you've got now. And I'm interested because you're, you're also doing your retreat work, which is around, you know, that, that is in that wellness space. And I'm really interested about how a lot of allied health professionals in particular seem to be moving to, to that, that wellness, you know, working in wellness, it's such a kind of, you know, catch all term. And when I started my group of clinics, one of the things that I was trying to do was put professional knowledge into that space. So it seemed at that stage, so I'm talking kind of maybe 10 years ago now, every social media influencer with a six pack and a pretty smile was espousing, you know, health advice or advice around, you know, lifestyle choices. Was that a part of your drive, then into that space as well? Or did it come from owning the clinics and seeing your patients and the same needs within within your kind of sphere?

Niky Hamilton  7:15  
Um, I think what happened and I have to sort of reflect because sometimes, like I said, sometimes things just evolve without necessarily a conscious plan. I've always had a bit of a vague plan, but I've allowed things to evolve. And I think, throughout my physio career, and throughout my own personal development. I've always loved learning and always been very curious. And I think that's something to keep anybody passionate in any career, if you can maintain your curiosity, and your love of learning, and not ever assuming that, okay, I know everything now. Therefore, I'm bored. It's like, there's always something more to learn. And I guess, what I found in my own recovery through grief, is that there were a lot of pieces missing within my own health that I needed to reclaim. And part of that was understanding mind health, a little bit more understanding, emotional regulation, understanding self care, understanding. So I actually went and retrained and did additional courses, because I'm, I'm a course junkie, and I have to learn lots of things all the time. Much to the annoyment and annoyance of my husband, I'm sure. But in that learning process, I started to structure some steps, really, for my own health, to ensure that my own health was looked after while I was in the team, because I was having a lot of fun trying to navigate everybody's demands. And in that process of structuring a step by step pathway for myself, I started teaching pieces to my team members. Like how to focus on your strengths, how to figure out what you value, how to link that into your work, and in teaching my team that and how to build resilience, I guess, against life setbacks. And as I was teaching part of that to my team on different days that we had all of them were like, you need to teach this to women, generally, like this is really good stuff. And because I love teaching, I then ran like a one day workshop for women on building resilience. And then from there, you know, there was a lot of information in one day, it was all a bit too much. I thought stuff but let's do a retreat. So I ended up rolling into retreats that way. So my, I guess, my, my, my my evolution into that was not necessarily to bring physiotherapy into that space. But to bring the idea of emotional regulation, mindset, understanding of strengths a pathway forward through life's challenges and who hasn't got life's challenges, right. That was really the underlying drive that helps the retreat sort of evolve. And as I started advertising them, I realised there's lots of women in the same space, and I think most of the women that come to the retreats are quite grateful that I have a physiotherapy background, because there's a lot of retreats out there that are very yoga based or spiritual based. And there's nothing wrong with that there's definitely an avenue for that as well. But it's nice that some of the women feel certainly very grateful that there's also a bit of science background. So I talk about the brain and neuroscience within the retreat. And most women that I have on my retreat really resonate with that. So to combine those physiotherapy skills, with other skills, it's actually been a really nice journey for me to evolve into.

Eve Drew  10:42  
I would find that also, Niky. So I also run retreats, which we talked about briefly before coming on air. And my collaborator with that is a psychologist, and we have done post credit and positive psychology, and definitely that evidence based information for a lot of people. They want that they need that. And there's also retreats for yoga, and for those that want more spirituality, but definitely that science background, I think helps a lot of people and all the things you were talking about with values and strengths. And as we understand that more about ourselves, then we can share that information with others. And I guess that self awareness contributes to that, doesn't it? The benefits that we're displaying, and it's really lovely that your team was so I think grateful for you sharing that. And that was that probably that bit of encouragement as well that you could reach a bigger audience with that.

Niky Hamilton  11:38  
Yeah, well, I'm actually grateful to my team, because there are things that I've tested out on them. It's like, Oh, I'd like to teach this. Okay, I'll get my team together. And we'll just do like a three hour workshop or a Sunday afternoon thing together. I'll teach a little bit and it's more me practising. And, you know, I get feedback from them and you know, bits loved and bits that they didn't love. So the kind of my my test audience. I'm grateful for them. 

Eve Drew  12:03  
Some built audience.

Trisha Cashmere  12:06  
You've got a lot of stuff going on Niky. I mean, and you've talked to us about the importance of, you know, balance and avoiding burnout. But now you are running a business, you've got this retreat business as well. How do you achieve? I don't know, some balance? Or what does that look like to you?

Niky Hamilton  12:23  
I'm really, really tired all the time. I'm exhausted. No, I, I've always been sort of probably a higher energy, enthusiastic, sort of person. So I, but I basically, how do I manage it? I outsource as much as I can, is the first thing. I've got, I'm very clear in my own mind as to where my strengths lie. And where I struggle, and I'm not going to focus on the places in my business where I have difficulty. I'm going to go right who is best at this, it's not me, and, and find someone that fits that role or loves doing that. Because no matter what work environment we're in, there's always someone that loves doing something that you don't love. So it's about kind of interviewing your staff and finding out like, who loves this part of the business and who can take ownership of this?  So I do my best to outsource. I think the other part of especially the physiotherapy practice is for me to make sure I've got systems and procedures kind of in place. So I'm not having to manage every little thing that happens. It's like, this is the system, this was the procedure. And I was very reluctant to, to do that for a long time. Because I'm by nature, I'm not very procedure driven. That's not kind of my underlying nature. But I, I realised probably within the first three years of business that if I didn't have some procedures in place, that it just turned into chaos. So I ended up having a business coach for a period of time that helps me to systemize and create processes in the clinic. So I think part of its outsourcing, part of it's just having systems in place that you know, will roll relatively smoothly with very little interaction. And then the other part for me is always prioritising my health. So I basically, I do exercise for an hour every morning. It's like, I'm not available until I've done that. So this is my time I exercise, I do my meditation, I do a bit of yoga, like whatever it is that I need for this hour in the morning. And that's the number one priority, because if I don't do that, I find that I'm less decisive, I get overwhelmed more easily. It's kind of like I've just got to clean my own slate. Make sure I've outsourced to make sure the systems are in place. And then I have my own priority list. So my list, my task list is always like way too long and then it's just like okay, what's the top two priorities for today? I just understand, I'm probably never gonna get to the rest. And that's okay.

Trisha Cashmere  15:07  
I've got a follow up question because I'm really, I mean, I have a big team as well. And I'm very interested to hear because you said you outsource to your team. So does that mean amongst your physios, you've got people that might be, for example, doing your social media management or tasks outside that?

Niky Hamilton  15:22  
Yep, so I do outsource. And I don't always outsource to the team. So I outsource as much to the practice manager manager as I can or outsource the social media stuff as best I can. I also outsource to VA. So I've used virtual assistants for different tasks within the business. And mostly they're, they're tasks that are really like data entry tasks, for example. I don't need my physios to do that. So and that, but then if there's more marketing and promotional things, physios love to get involved in that because they've each got their area of expertise that they want to see more patients like this. So I've got one physio on my team that loves runners and running injuries. It's like, okay, well, let's do a team thing together, we're going to do city to surf, we're going to put some stuff on social media, we're going to do the top three exercises for runners. And she's, that then helps drive her to take ownership of that part, that social event within the business, but also the social media part of it, and then hopefully, that attracts her kind of clientele that she wants to treat. And the same thing happens with my women's health team is like, okay, let's organise a visit to the obstetricians or the midwives.  Let's go, then I pass that organisation. That's your job, I 100% support you with that, because I want to say to my physios shine. In their role in what they're doing in the clinic, so I guess I don't outsource administrative tasks to physios necessarily, but I, I have a list of things that I outsource and try and outsource as much as we can.

Trisha Cashmere  17:02  
I love that. But I do. Because my I'm also incredibly motivated to give every one of my team the best opportunity to have the best work experience that they can. And attracting your ideal client, that's a big one that Eve loves to chat about. Actually getting them to, I mean, getting them to be really engaged in what that looks like in terms of how you're presenting to the world. I think it's fascinating. So some nice tips there, Niky, I'm taking some notes.

Eve Drew  17:29  
I'm hearing boundaries as well there Niky.  Like that boundaries around your time and energy and knowing what again, when you know what you need from your day, every day, then you can put boundaries around that and ensure that it happens and be really intentional and conscious about those choices. Whereas I think some people don't even know what makes them feel good. And I also heard that, you know, knowing and having conversations about strengths and trying to understand that within your team that allows for that nurturing and encouragement for people to lean into those strengths and find ways that they can be, you know, feeling really energised at work as well. Whereas if you don't have those workshops, if you don't have those discussions, if you don't have those opportunities to understand one another. I think that that's a lot of businesses are missing out because they don't understand that. So they can't outsource or ensure those things are happening because they actually don't know their team very well at all.

Niky Hamilton  18:23  
Yeah, I actually make an effort and I have done every year except for the COVID year, is at the beginning of each year have like a team development day. Where we just lock out the diary. And I know it costs me as far as I lose patient income, but I do it in January, which is a pretty usually a quieter time anyway.  So I'm a bit strategic around when I do it. And we have a day where we brainstorm together, I make everyone do Strengths Finder test so that we can all share like these are my strengths. This is Danny strengths, and we go through like each other's strengths. And then we prioritise like what we value. So some physios will value family, some physios will value their career or educational learning or health. And so we all collectively together know what each other's strengths are. So I actually prioritise that. And I changed it up a little bit. But each year, I spend some time in really helping myself understand but also understanding each other. And then once we have that understanding, again, I think and you've brought that topic up about setting boundaries. Is that I really feel that one of the, one of the reasons that physios and allied health professionals can can start to get into burnout is, A they don't  prioritise what's important to them but B, even if they know they don't set the boundary around that and I think learning to set boundaries in a kind but clear way it's actually a really important to prevent burnout.

Eve Drew  19:52  
I think it's one of the key ingredients isn't it? And Trisha and I've had other guests on talking about burnout because it's something that we're very conscious of in I'm like, I've experienced it personally. So I understand that as well. But yeah, unless we honestly know or experience that sometimes it's harder to set those boundaries around it as well. And as health professionals were the carers, the givers, the nurturers, that's why we get into health care. So it's hard for us to say no, it is really, really hard for a lot of people to say no in healthcare. But without it, then people leave the profession. And we're seeing the attrition rates at the moment, the highest I've experienced, certainly, in my 25 years of practice, and it's concerning.

Niky Hamilton  20:32  
It is, it's across the board, isn't it? It's not just yours, it's it's nursing. It's, medicine, it's doctors, it's GPS, it's, it's across the board that level of burnout. And I think some of it comes down to like prioritising our own self care. And I don't think it needs to be much, it's not like I need to, you know, I only want to work two days a week, because the rest of the time I need to be pampered and massaged.  It's not really that. 

Trisha Cashmere  20:58  
Well, that'd be nice, actually.

Eve Drew  21:01  
Kind of looks like that the week I would prefer.

Speaker 3  21:03  
But I guess it's, it's knowing the small steps that you need to follow to help yourself feel fulfilled. And that sense of fulfilment. So A, set boundaries around the things that you value in your health. So it might be Look, I need to make sure I spend time with my family, because this is what fulfils me. And this is the steps that I need to take for my health, I need to go swimming, or I need to do a dance class or I need to do a yoga class or I need to meditate, whatever it is for you. Spending the time really understanding that is, is hugely valuable, I believe. And that sense of giving yourself permission to say, this is what I need is really important, because I think there's a lot of sense, especially in healthcare, I guess, is it because it's such a giving nurturing as a profession, like you've said, it's almost like we're not worthy, or we're too busy, to give ourselves permission to say, actually, I need to start work half an hour later on this day, because I need to finish work at this time on this day. Because this is the one thing that I need for me this week. It's almost like we've got to apologise for that.

Trisha Cashmere  22:16  
Niky, do you think that that's particularly difficult for women? Or do you think that that would be across the genders?

Niky Hamilton  22:25  
Honestly, it's, I believe it's particularly common in women. And I, I mean, I've seen even in the women that I treat. You know, I don't have time, but I've got to do everything for the kids and then everything for the family and then everything and I I just see it in women so often. And I don't know, I mean, I treat probably more women than men anyway. So maybe I'm biassed in what I see. So I don't want to say that men aren't like that. Because, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of men that are like that. But as a general rule, my observation has been that it's a really common feature with women and and it probably comes down to that natural maternal instincts. You know, if you have young kids, then that's, of course, what has to happen, you have to prioritise them odd for a period of time, because it can't survive without you. But then it becomes a lifelong habit, right?

Trisha Cashmere  23:23  
Yes, it does. So you're your retreat space, is that focused on health professionals? Or is that a broad programme for all people? Is it women who were you engaging with in there?

Niky Hamilton  23:36  
Um, it's not targeted health professionals, I have considered doing that. Because I think health professionals could definitely do with it. I have had some health professionals come but it's definitely not targeting that it's it's really targeting women who have navigated some sort of life challenge, whether it's grief or loss. And I mean, Grief is a pretty broad term. I mean, grief doesn't mean someone's passed away. And that's my background. That's why I developed it. But grief can be, you know, going through a divorce, grief could be like, my career has changed on my health is now in crisis. And I didn't realise this would happen, Grief can be, life is just not turning out, as I thought it was going to. So when women reach a point of like, I'm, I'm kind of tired of telling my story around this. And I know, I need to change something within me, but I just don't know what steps to take. I don't know how to change something for me. That's when I stepped into my retreat, because it's, we don't spend a lot of time rehashing, you know, this is what's happened. We don't look at the past. It's more about okay, where are you now? Where would you like to be? And these are some of the steps that you need to take and part of it starts with that kind of base of self care in different parts. Which is your body healthy mind, health mindset, self talk, our confidence and emotional regulation. So I kind of cover all of those. So I guess the target audience sometimes it's health professionals, but more often it's it's women who have reached a crossroads and know they need to make a change.

Trisha Cashmere  25:08  
Nearly ready to sign me up actually,

Eve Drew  25:14  
Talking to the converted Niky. Again, I don't want to, you know, take down the whole retreat path too much. But there's a lot of,  do you notice a lot of guilt when people like there's a lot of guilt when people are coming there, they're leaving behind sometimes young families careers, and it seems very indulgent. And so even just that shift in energy over the few days or the week, or however long the retreats are, it's amazing. By making that choice, that's the first step often isn't it's like, okay, I can choose myself. It's okay that I asked for what I want. And I take this time for myself, and then what a gift it is to have that space for clarity. 

Niky Hamilton  25:57  
And I can recall feeling the same way in my own journey in that in my sort of journey through significant grief and loss. I remember, at one point I had a girlfriend asked me onto her retreat, now she's a yoga teacher. And she said, look, and this was probably about a year afterwards. And she asked me, Would you like to come along, and I initially and she offered to pay for me like, I'll give you a free spot on my and this was so generous. And I remember at the time thinking um no, I won't do that. And that My instant reaction was no. And I really spent some time analysing it. And part of it was that I felt like A, I wasn't worthy. It's like I had this sense of underlying guilt. Like if I just done this or that then I would have been a better person. Therefore this, therefore that stacked up to guilt, therefore I'm not worthy of anything. And I think that sense of I'm unworthy can be a background narrative, for a lot of women like I'm not worthy, I don't deserve this. Now the retreat, I run to only like three and a half days. It's not long. But that sense of like, I'm not really worthy of this. And it was at that time, I came across a quote by Dr. Demartini. So I'm the Demartini facilitator now. But that quote, read "whatever you have or have not done, you're worthy of love". And I don't know what happened to me when I read that quote, but it's something shifted or suspect no matter what you have, or you haven't done in your life, all the guilt and the shame is all the things that stack up all the things that you think you should prioritise no matter what you're actually worthy of love. And so as a result of that, that was the one thing for me that prompted me to go, you know what, I'm actually going to step out and do this retreat for myself. And it was again, at that time that I realised that I'd actually prioritised everybody else's health for so long that I just never prioritised mine. And so that retreat was a bit of a turning point for me to start figuring out, you know, how to start prioritising myself and it's okay. Doesn't mean I don't give to others. I think sometimes that's the perception is like, Oh, if I do something for me, it means I'm selfish. No, if I do something for me, it means I can actually give more because I've got a filterthen. I'm not running around with like, no fuel in the tank on the side of the road, just asking for help, because I've got nothing left. You know, it's it really is about ensuring that you can continue to give. 

Eve Drew  28:24  
Yeah I love that there's an analogy about the overflowing cup. So we talk about pouring from keeping our cups full. But this beautiful analogy of the overflowing cup. So our cup actually has to stay full all the time. Yeah, and the people around us get the overflow. Yeah. And it's a different way of looking at that in that we think about, Okay, keep our cup full, we pour it out to everyone around us. And there were empty again, then we fill it up. Let's keep our cup full all the time, so that we can give our best self to everyone else. And that was a game changing kind of thought for me as well, where it's like, oh, okay, I have to keep mine full  all the time. It's not empty. fill back up. 

Niky Hamilton  29:02  
Yeah, really good. I like that analogy.

Trisha Cashmere  29:08  
Can I ask you a bit of a business question comming in? I love them. I love the soft stuff. I shouldn't say soft stuff. But I'm really interested to know like how this is working for you, business wise?  How you're making these two different things, and whether you know, it all stacks up financially for you, so that it is a really viable career and option?

Niky Hamilton  29:28  
As in combining physio practice and the retreat?

Trisha Cashmere  29:32  
For you particularly so everyone's pathway is different. But we're really interested to have our audience hear about you know, different opportunities, I guess, for someone I mean, you know, so many people go into their undergraduate degree as an 18 year old who land they're largely as a result of the school that they got in their HSC or equivalent in other states without necessarily really understanding you know, what they're getting themselves into. And, you know, they they probably they do have, you know, a more caring or personality, because that's what attracts them to the health path. But beyond that, you know, it's it is a bit random it feels to me. So, sometimes, you know, like, I want people to know that there are lots of different ways, you know, ways that this can look, it doesn't have to be this linear path into particular kind of practice. And you've demonstrated that with this beautiful sort of circular career. However, you know, we still do have bills to pay, it also has to work. So have you managed to make that work for you? Has it been tricky kind of balancing the two kinds of parts of your career or have they factoring complementary and sort of, you know, the two or greater, you know, together and then one of them would be?

Niky Hamilton  30:42  
That's a good question. And I think it's both actually, there's, there's times where I feel split. So if I, if I've got to say, for example, if I've got a retreat coming up. It's a bit like running a wedding, its kind of the pre wedding stuff, is a lot to organise as the caterer is there's the food allergies, there's the who wants to be what, you know, there's lots of things. So in those times, I feel I'm actually torn. I've got two things going on. And it's it's a challenge. I think, in that regard, the way I navigate that as best I can, is, again, to ensure I've got a good team. So I, my physio team, basically run the physio business during that week. I'm almost not there at all, they all understand that the retreats are important to me, because I've communicated that. So I think communication is the key in that in that regard. And so there are times in that week in the lead up where I think, Oh, my God, what am I doing? I've asked that many times in my career, like, what am I doing, but I think, you know, if you don't have some challenges, you can't find, you don't find solutions, or you don't rise up into, into problem solving or evolve. So if I were to say, Oh, this is all really easy, this is like 100% joy, I think you'd probably both go Nik's full of crap. It's not 100% easy, it's not full of joy all of the time. But I will say that once the retreat, each retreats I run four  a year. There's a sense of fulfilment, that then means when I come back into the practice, I feel A, grateful for my team. But then I guess ready to dive back into physio, so I guess I'm, I'm weaving two businesses together. And I think the key to that, for me, financially and mentally is to ensure you've got good team members. And that's down to communicating with them and then communicating with you and giving them a vision for themselves within the business. So they feel part of it.

Eve Drew  32:53  
For sure. Trisha and I have had a few guests over the last few episodes Niky, where we've been exploring, I guess people were diversifying within, say, physio podiatry. And we find that really interesting because again, we're talking about people leaving the profession. And I see lots of comments on podiatry threads and things I'm part of saying, you know, I'm looking to leave the profession, can anyone give any advice on what to do next. And so I'm really kind of conscious and interested in that. So it's always great to see how we can use the skills that we've developed as a health professional and kind of repackage them and repurpose them into something that maybe gives us more meaning or purpose or a heat. How energised you are when you talk about the work that you're doing. And that's really lovely. And so what would you say for someone that was going okay, I'm at a crossroads in my career. I don't really love the clinical part of it anymore. I want a bit of a bit of both. What would you say to them in terms of how they would make that change, and what skills they might be able to utilise as a health professional to find change?

Niky Hamilton  34:00  
I think ultimately, it's about and we've kind of already touched on already is really digging into A, what do you love about the profession? So I know within myself, what I love is having a vision and creating things, but I also love teaching like it's always been a thread side. Before I started my business I was was teaching hip workshops with physios in Sydney and in Brisbane. Teaching has always been a thread for me that brings me joy and leaves me fulfilled. So if you really understand okay, what is it that I love about my profession? Is it connecting with patients? Is it process organisation is it's running the the compliance and processing part of the business do I love managing do I love like say from my example teaching and learning what is it that you love and then how can I use that skill in in a creative way in a forward momentum to create that shift that I need. So, like for me, I know, and I've probably already mentioned this that I don't I don't necessarily love the processes, the systems, the managerial side of things. It doesn't light me up. So then I outsource that. But I've basically tried as best I can throughout my career to really hone in on A, what are my strengths and what do I love? And if you know what you love within your business, then it's just get a whiteboard out, brainstorm, okay, how can I use this skill in other areas? Could I use that in social media? Could I use it in the community? Could I use that skill in school system, could I use it as a theme, like motivating families or being involved? So there's different areas that you can look at? Where can that skill translate? Because I think as allied health professionals, we all have amazing skills in in helping people with their health, and it's just looking at, well, how can I use this, you know, creative way to the people that I want to talk to? 

Eve Drew  36:02  
Love that, knowing what our strengths are and knowing what lights us up? Seems so simple, doesn't it? But then being creative about it.

Trisha Cashmere  36:10  
 Niky with the work that you do? Do you see any emerging trends in our health or in physiotherapy that you think are exciting for your business? Or for the professions more generally?

Niky Hamilton  36:20  
I see emerging trends, you know, I'm not really sure. 

Trisha Cashmere  36:34  
I'll add a comment. So I was at a conference last month, and we had a future speaker was very interesting. And one of the things that she spoke about was that pushback to local and connection, that people are being more careful about where they're spending their money, but very, you know, wanting something that is more bespoke and more and, you know, a part of their community and, and different things like that. So I'm interested to know, is that something that you're seeing, either in your clinical space, or? I mean, obviously, your workshops are very personal and personalised. Do you think that is a part of what drives their success? And is that the way that you're going to continue to go? Or do you see this as something that should be rolled out in a kind of larger scale?

Niky Hamilton  37:22  
I think it'll continue to go that way. And again, this the same, like we've already touched on the burnout is that people are craving connection. And we've spent, all COVID has affected that in a massive way. And so yes, I do believe that the emerging trend will be that we do need more capacity to connect in a local way. And yeah, I agree with that. And I also see within the physiotherapy profession, more specifically, rather than just Allied Health Is that is that sense that ultimately, we're probably going to have to shift and pivot to be able to ensure we maintain connection with our patients in, you know, in a way that makes that patient feel heard and understood and part of something. Sometimes that means we have to do our hands on work, like hands on skills, because that's one of the skills of a physiotherapist, really, and a skill that we've probably shut down for a long time. Which creates disconnects in actual. So yeah, I think an emerging trend, hopefully in the physiotherapy profession is again, more acceptance of you know, manual therapy, as a as a part of one of our tools that we use, not the whole toolkit, but part of it.

Trisha Cashmere  38:40  
I love that Niky and I think I'd love to see, especially our early career physios been more confident with with, you know, that hands on space, and certainly very important in the clinics that I run, and for my team. Because what we find is that if people don't feel that there's those quick games, and that connected piece that they don't actually stick to the plan. You know, there might be three exercises, there probably aren't for anyone listening, but there might be three exercises that will get you across the line, but nobody does them, you know, they go in, they get whatever information from someone who doesn't touch them or do anything. And that's it, you know, like that level that if people were motivated enough to sort their own crap out, they wouldn't have ever come to you in the first place. So I'm a big advocate of manual therapy. I feel like the evidence isn't there that it doesn't work. You know, there might be some evidence that other things do work, but I don't think anyone's done any kind of quality study that demonstrates that manual therapy isn't effective. And I'd be interested to look at some business models where manual therapy doesn't happen compared to where manual therapy does and see who's actually, you know, kicking the goals in that space and maintaining, you know, their clients and keeping their staff happy. So, I'm with you on that when I do my campaign. I'll be sure to tag you.

Niky Hamilton  39:59  
I'll be there, I'll be there with bells on because I really feel that and like I agree with you. If someone wanted three exercises, they'd probably just go on to YouTube anyway, and probably not be effective necessarily, but as physiotherapist, we've got three skills really, the first skill is communication and education. So that means we have the chance to communicate the what we perceive as the the diagnosis in a way that the patient is not then amplified or worried or so we can calm down and actually communicate effectively with the patient to A connect with them, but then make sure that they understand what's going on. We've got exercise prescription, which also exercise physiologist do very well at mind you. And then we've got our capacity to do manual therapy. And it's what we use with our patients, it's going to vary from patient to patient. And and ultimately, I'll probably use all three in a session. But I might do more exercise for someone or more education for someone, depending on what I perceive is needed at the time. And that choice comes probably down to experience in the end is understanding that. But if we forget the manual therapy bucket, where leaving patients feeling very underwhelmed with what we're doing,

Trisha Cashmere  41:16  
I would agree. All the physios out there take note.

Niky Hamilton  41:20  
Well, I also think it's a bit hard because I don't know that the undergraduates initially, necessarily taught a lot of manual therapy skills now. And I just know I'd ended up doing lots of courses to try and figure that out, because that's what I'm doing with my hands. Okay, if you don't know what you're doing, then there's plenty of courses out there go and do one learn a bit more.

Trisha Cashmere  41:39  
I agree, find a  clinic with some good clinicians with lots of experience. And a mentor.

Niky Hamilton  41:44  
Yeah, absolutely. I had a lot of good mentors in my first 10 years, like getting great clinics where I was taught a lot. I was very grateful for that.

Trisha Cashmere  41:52  
That's fantastic. Wonderful.

Eve Drew  41:54  
interesting thing to watch is a podiatrist, you know, running parallel, and seeing all that talk in the physio world. And it's that very much either or, and there's a lot of cancel culture, and there's a lot of anger. And it's, it's not helpful for professionals. You know, podiatry has aspects of that as well. But I love what you say there Niky, about the three parts. That is exactly what we do. Yeah, education and connection and building trust and understanding what the, you know, what the client the patient wants from that treatment too. Some people might be also, you know, what, I have never found manual therapy very effective. But I'm really, really dedicated to doing exercises, awesome. But the large majority, that's not the case, let's be honest. And if we can reduce painless and manual therapy and build connection that way as well, like it's a no brainer. I don't. It's confusing as to why it needs to be either or isn't it?

Niky Hamilton  42:42  
Yeah, I think ultimately, when it comes to polarised opinions. So whenever you see a debate where people are heavily arguing their point of view, I call it a polarised opinion where they can only see all good about their thing and all bad about something else. And it creates a safe store effect in the mind. Once we get to the middle and see shades of grey look, there's probably some detrimental things that can happen with manual therapy. Same with exercise, mind you. But there's there's also some good things that can happen in both. And once you could come to the middle of the seesaw and see good and bad on both sides, then you're not arguing in a polarised opinionated way. But you're able to see the benefits of all and then make a decision that's based on reactivity. 

Eve Drew  43:25  
Totally, absolutely.

Trisha Cashmere  43:27  
Very, very calm and very well described example of exactly, you know, the way that it's operating at the moment is very nasty.

Niky Hamilton  43:39  
Well, that goes across all opinionated debates, right? People that are far into the seesaw, like this is 100% Bad. Or this is 100%. Good. That's they're the people that can't see a middle ground and argue till the cows come home and then make you feel bad for not having the same opinions. It's yeah, it's a bit crazy in my mind.

Trisha Cashmere  44:01  
Oh, I'd like to see you write a blog about that Niky.

Niky Hamilton  44:05  
Actually, I might have a  podcast about it. Actually, I'm not sure. Yeah, I know. I've written about it before, because it was very apparent in COVID. You know, like with the whole toilet paper argument, and the fights in the supermarkets over the toilet paper. It really came to my mind then I was just like, oh my god, this is crazy, like this wild swings of opinion, but it can be not just during COVID and not just about vaccines and not just about, like it could happen in physiotherapy about manual therapy.

Trisha Cashmere  44:31  
I would love it if you could share what you've done on that because we can pop that in our show notes. If you are interested to see more.

Trisha Cashmere  44:50  
Can I ask one more question? 

Niky Hamilton  44:52  
Of course you can.

Trisha Cashmere  44:53  
So I mean, you've shared lots of beautiful gems I've you know, taken lots of notes here. Curious, I love learning communication and your little analogy around you know where we are on an argument is just fantastic. But is there something like a biggest lesson or really piece of valuable, valuable advice that you would think would be helpful for our audience around, you know, your journey as a business owner in the allied health space that you could share?

Niky Hamilton  45:20  
For business owners specifically?

Trisha Cashmere  45:22  
Or anyone who's just, you know, it's good to?

Niky Hamilton  45:25  
Yeah, well, I think it's probably been a theme right throughout is to is to make sure you look after yourself is is and really figure out what it is that you need. Because there's plenty of times in business, we are met with challenges. And I think if you're in a space, we haven't taken a little bit of time to look out for yourself, your decisions aren't then calm, and then not, you can become reactive within your own self, which is never a pretty outcome. Let's admit that. So I think it's about trying to centre yourself as much as you can, in whatever way that works for you. So that when you are I mean, I've had plenty of setbacks in my business, like plenty of setbacks, I can't even begin to tell you some of the setbacks that I've had. But I noticed that if I'm not in my own centred place of calm, if I don't, okay, press pause before I talk to that person, press pause before I make that decision, sit on it, get clear about it, and then come about it come to it with from a place of centred a bit like I talked about without suits, or that kind of centred approach. It just means things going a bit wild. And you can end up feeling burnt out, distressed, overwhelmed really, really quickly. So I think probably the key thing that I would say is figuring out what it is that gives you fulfilment, what fills your cup, because then you knock on decisions from there come from a sentient place, rather than a place of kind of just putting out spot fires and running around, you know, kind of reactive way.

Niky Hamilton  47:03  
Amazing advice. Thank you. So many pearls of wisdom gems. Thank you so much, Niky, it's been so lovely to talk to you. I feel like I could talk to you all day. It's been a pleasure meeting you. And we look forward to staying connected. And we'll share all your links in the show notes. And we look forward to chatting with you soon. 

Niky Hamilton  47:22  
Fantastic. And thanks so much, Trisha for inviting me along. It's really great to spend some time with you on the leadership training in the lead up to this and spend a bit of time chatting with you today. So thank you both.

Eve Drew  47:33  
Awesome. Thank you. And thanks, Trisha. Good to see you again. And we'll chat soon. Bye.

Trisha Cashmere  47:40  
 Bye.

Eve Drew  47:41  
 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the business of health. Please share it with your friends, and be sure to tag me Eve at her health underscore collective and Trisha at healthy body underscore co so we can say thank you. 

Trisha Cashmere  47:55  
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Eve Drew  48:17  
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